Posts by Doug Mason

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

Vanderhoven7,

I was thinking about this - apologies for being a slow thinker, but that's life.

I don't know how recent this "appointment in 1919" idea actually is, but the context in my mind is the July 15, 2013 Watchtower magazine. I had just written a Study on that issue of the magazine but I had omitted discussion on one subject: the GB itself. That, I reasoned, required a separate Study, which is what I produced during the ensuing weeks.

So my statement regarding 1919 has to be seen in the context of this latest list of amended WTS ideas. I could have discussed the changes that have been made to the idea of the FDS, but that would have been an unprofitable distraction.

Maybe I could amend my text to say that this is their current teaching, but I wonder if that would that be of any benefit?

I looked at the 1963 "Babylon" book to see what it (I presume Fred F.) had to say about the date: it was the year when the prison doors were opened; the year when Babylon fell; and it was the year when the remnant of the 144,000 began to be freed. Nothing about any "Appointment"; nothing about any "Governing Body" that I could see.

As I wrote previously, that 1927 Watchtower magazine, in talking about the "Faithful and wise servant" provides no thoughts about 1919. I will try to create a text file of the relevant parts of that article - but no promises.

Doug

272

A Video Series about 607 BC vs 587 BC

by Londo111 in

this is the main series playlist:.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=plynx0om_bmgbfmnapjr_v5fe9_pf8sqa1.

this is the accompanying video appendix:.

Doug Mason

In which year did the Returnees first meet at the temple site?

1. 1. If the writer was using a Nisan calendar and accession-year reckoning, Cyrus’ first year began on 24 March 538 BCE.

2. 2. If the writer was using a Tishri calendar and accession-year reckoning, Cyrus’ first year began on 17 September 538 BCE.

3. 3. Did a first year of Darius precede the rule by Cyrus?

4. 4. What was the date when Cyrus made his decree?

5. 5. How long did it take for thousands of people to prepare their families and belongings?

6. 6. What was the date when they started their trek?

7. 7. Exactly how long did it take before each family arrived in its town or village?

8. 8. Exactly how long did it take for all the families to be settled in their towns and villages?

9. 9. How long did it take for the last one to walk from their home to Jerusalem?

10 10.Where does the Bible say that this event concluded the “Seventy Years”?

272

A Video Series about 607 BC vs 587 BC

by Londo111 in

this is the main series playlist:.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=plynx0om_bmgbfmnapjr_v5fe9_pf8sqa1.

this is the accompanying video appendix:.

Doug Mason

Jeffro,

As your pictures clearly show, there is no evidential proof that the event took place in 538. There are several assumptions, without evidences. I am glad you indicated the looseness with the word "possible". Little wonder the event is dated variously from 538 to 535.

Did the writer assign Nisan reckoning or Tishri, accession or non-accession? At which part of his first year did Cyrus make his decee? How long did it take the people to prepare? How long were the people settled in their towns and villages before they ventured to Jerusalem? Where is Daniel's "Darius" and his first year in all of this? Were Cyrus and Darius co-regents?

It's only a problem for the WTS, since it is a pivotal crucial date in their system.

Nowhere does the Scripture say that the 70 years ended with that event. 2 Chr 36 says the 70 years of Babylonian dominance ended when the Persians defeated them. That is simple and obvious.

Thanks,

Doug

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

Vanderhoven7,

Thanks for those links.

I have just been reading the article in the February 15, 1927 Watchtower. Most interesting; when you read it you will need to bypass the unnecessary verbage. Pages 55 to 57 in particular are interesting.

I think that Rutherford's shift from CTR being the individual "faithful and wise servant" to a "class" that was the feet of Christ was a major factor in his losing most of the followers. The other major factor of course related to Rutherford dropping the pyramid measurements.

The dates in this 1927 article focus on 1874 (parousia) and 1918 (erchomenon - coming).

Doug

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

Vanderhoven7,

While searching for details of the persons who were "appointed" in 1919, keep in mind that you are not searching for the precise expression "faithful and discreet slave". It is probable that that term did not appear until they released their NT in 1950. Before then, they could have used the expression as it appears in the KJV or similar.

The following from Wikipedia provides some clues - although lacking details - which might provide a guide where to search:

"The doctrine has undergone several major changes since it was formulated in 1881 by Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Bible Student movement. Russell initially applied it to the "church"—the "little flock" of 144,000 who would go to heaven—but five years later explained that it was an individual who would act as a sole channel or agent for Christ, dispensing "food", or new truths, for God's "household". Bible Students consequently regarded Russell as the "faithful and wise servant" of the parable.

"In 1927 the Watch Tower Society announced that the "servant" was not in fact an individual, but was made up of the entire body of faithful spirit-anointed Christians; by 2010 that group numbered about 11,000 Witnesses from around the world. In 2012 the society announced an "adjustment" of the doctrine, explaining that the slave was now understood to be synonymous with the Governing Body, a small group of anointed elders serving at the religion's world headquarters. The announcement also marked a change in belief about the timing of the slave class's appointment by Christ: it was said to have taken place in 1919 rather than in apostolic times, as previously believed." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithful_and_Discreet_Slave accessed 19 July 2013)

------------------------------

Do not be misled by their readjustments of history. When did they realise they had been appointed in 1919? Had they gone through life before then without realising they had received the most royal of appointments?

Doug

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

Vanderhoven7,

I know I am biased - show me someone who is not. It was not my intention to produce a document that pitched Conservatives against Liberals. I think that in general, people are biased towards conservatism already (such as "the Bible is the 'Word of God'"), so I do not need to reiterate those views. They are already well known. Besides, my focus, as I set out at the start before the body of "The Study" shows the limits of my investigation.

I hope that I presented reasons for arriving at my conclusions. Since readers will likely find the ideas challenging, I decided to cite parts of my sources, rather than simply provide the conclusions I drew from them. Hence the size of the documents.

Regarding the 1919 FDS (if there was one), do you think we would benefit if I started a thread asking people for information? The thought running through my mind is that Rutherford was a singularly autocratic domineering person, so I wonder if he would have run the operation by committee. That, I guess, coloured my expression at identifying who was "appointed" (as against "anointed").

If there was indeed a group in 1919 that collectively was the FDS, what happened with each individual? What consultation process did JFR indulge in? From my reading, their experience was just the opposite. He dreamt up the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" and imposed it. He authored the books.

Perhaps the question is: at what stage did the leadership transfer from a President to a Governing Body? And I don't think it happened during the reign of JFR.

As I asked, should I repeat these thoughts on identifying the people appointed in 1919 as a new thread?

Doug

272

A Video Series about 607 BC vs 587 BC

by Londo111 in

this is the main series playlist:.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=plynx0om_bmgbfmnapjr_v5fe9_pf8sqa1.

this is the accompanying video appendix:.

Doug Mason

Jeffro,

How do you arrive at the date when the Jews assembled at the temple site?

Doug

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

Vanderhoven 7,

I am quite open to correction. Can you clarify for me the names of the people who were appointed in 1919? Where will I read that? Can you give me a quotation from that time?

In 1919, whom did the organisation say was the FDS? I know that CTR's wife wanted him to be known as such, but he rejected the idea.

Who was the FDS in say 1935? Where can I get the reference sources.

Thanks,

Doug

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

mP,

Right from the start, there were any number of Christianities. Their beliefs were so diverse, it is difficult to comprehend how they saw themselves as having allegiance to a common source - Jesus (Yeshua).

Paul was only one movement among an array of movements.

It just so happens that one of these numerous groups was ultimately victorious - Paul's followers. It was a political decision on the part of the state (Roman emperors). Since they were victorious, Paul's successors decided that their writings would form the Christian sacred writings - the NT.

If some other Christian group had ganed the victory - and the differences were immense, much greater than today - then the NT would have been different (or none at all), we would not have the same Christology (no Trinity), etc. I go through these issues in my Study, so I fail to see how you can say I was taking advice from him. I simply recorded what he said - in his genuine writings.

Doug

41

My Study: "Did a 'Governing Body' govern Paul?"

by Doug Mason in

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Doug Mason

Wayward son,

Apologies for the size - and for the range of topics. That's the reason I collected the Summaries at the start; otherwise the thread would get lost.

It took me a few weeks to put together, so I suspect it will take tme to work through - and agree here and there, as well as disagree.

Doug